Stephen Malkmus and the Jicks: Malkmus (in blue shirt) was making literate indie rock before it was cool

Less than 10 years after the 1990s’ melancholy sunset, critical consensus continues to build that Stephen Malkmus and his old band Pavement were one of the most influential rock bands of that entire decade, forging timeless indie-ethos rock from a crucible overflowing with high art/post modern aesthetics, sardonically poetic lyrics and a new genre pastiche wherein “Exile on Main Street” loose-feeling slack rock combined with the steely song craft of one of Malkmus’ favorite bands, The Fall.

Malkmus and his current band The Jicks are currently touring – at their leisure – behind their 2008 release “Real Emotional Trash,” his fourth – and best – post-Pavement solo album.

When I woke up Malkmus at his Portland home for this interview (first published in a super-abridged version in the Austin American-Statesman), he was initially groggy. After a few yawns, the lyrically hyper-literate, ever-ironic songwriter proved to be uncannily happy to expound on his early influences, whether or not Sesame Street’s Elmo inspired a song on “Real Emotional Trash” and how he considered becoming an Austinite after the release of Pavement’s “Terror Twilight.”

Black Swan : First of all I want to thank you for taking time out to do the interview cause I know you’re super-busy. I really appreciate it.

Malkmus: (He replies totally groggy as if he literally just woke up) Yeah. No big.

Black Swan : I got the tape recorder going; so I’m just gonna roll on through (the interview).

I’ve been listening to your music for years and I’ve probably seen a zillion Pavement shows – and your solo shows too – and have enjoyed them all. But some of your recent guitar playing on “Real Emotional Trash” is ridiculously smokin’. Did you start playing when you were five? Or did you come out of the womb playing?

Malkmus: Yeah. Ummm. Let me think. Not really. I played acoustic guitar and stuff before high school. And then I played bass in a punk band. But I always thought that I was going to be a guitar player.

Back in those days, there were people like Greg Ginn and Flipper, the Butthole Surfers and the Meat Puppets who were playing punk music but they were playing it differently. I got to see them in person. And I’d rather be those guys than just the bar chord guy in the Circle Jerks, you know?

So anyway, I was into that, and then over the course of 20 years I’ve just been listening to lots of different stuff. Now I can go ahead and be myself and have a voice on guitar instead of just have it be a backing instrument, you know? (He yawns. He’s still waking up.)

And so, that’s what I’ve been doing.

Black Swan: The way The Jicks do it live…is it a little bit different without a second guitar player?

Malkmus: Well, (Jicks’ multi-instrumentalist) Mike Clark plays guitar sometimes. Depends on the song. Sometimes he plays piano. But yeah, we’ve always had a rhythm guitarist in the live outfit – like Scott (Kannenberg) from Pavement and Mike to fill out the parts that are on the albums.

It sounds like the record, sort of, you know? Mike has room to go off on some of the guitar parts he plays. He doesn’t really play the solos (exactly the same), like (for instance on) “Hopscotch Willie” on the album. But, he’s got his choice to let it go where he wants.

Black Swan: I don’t want the interview to all be about guitar playing. But then again, almost everybody in Austin plays guitar, so I think people will enjoy hearing about it.

Malkmus: (He laughs) Yeah, they have a guitar legacy in Austin. People there love guitars for some reason.

(I spare him the litany of Austin guitarists like Stevie Ray Vaughan, Eric Johnson, Paul Leary, etc…because he obviously is already familiar with Austin’s most notorious guitar players.)

Black Swan: On “Dragonfly Pie,” kinda toward the end of the song, there is something that the guitar does where it almost starts to sound like a keyboard. Is that a pedal that you use live?

Malkmus: That’s just that Ooh Wah pedal that Zvex makes. Yeah, when we did that song we were just thinking of a way to make it less Sabbath-y and (for a way it could) morph into something weirder. So I was adding some electronics on it. Like, there’s some Moog keyboard I played in the other parts of the song…just something to make it so it was not so Queens of the Stone Age, or a Sabbath-type song, you know? The chorus is never like that. But I think that’s what the goal was by treating the guitars and adding these crazy keyboards.

Black Swan: I also wanted to ask you about tunings, and then I promise this will be my last guitar question.

Malkmus: No problem.

Black Swan: I have a friend named Austin Miller that was sitting down trying to play some of your songs, and he was like, “Dude, I can’t, I can’t do it. I think there is some alternate tunings going on that I can’t figure out.”

Malkmus: (yawning) Yeah. On this record, there’s maybe…that first song, “Dragonfly Pie” is a standard one. But I’ve been doing more. I used to be doing a lot of varied (tunings). The “Drop D” is kind of the gateway on (alternate) tunings that most people begin with. I fiddled around with that in a lot of different ways. Tuning some of the lower strings to higher and lower tones. But, there was a lot of tuning the E string to C and the A string to G and variations on that. A lot of the songs are in that tuning this time. But I’ve had a couple of other tunings through the different eras. I’ve kind of settled on that G – playing things in sort of an open G basically – but with the first string tuned to C also, which is my own invention, slightly.

Black Swan: Cool!

Malkmus: That’s probably why (your friend Austin couldn’t figure out how to play some of the songs). I mean…(the alternate tunings) make the songs…you know…and I’m playing chords and some standard things where I’m not really going for a build up of dissonance of the Sonic Youth variety. We’re just going for a way to make things sound not exactly normal as we’ve been through this rock ‘n’ roll (thing) for quite a while.

Black Swan: Yeah the first time I saw you play was opening for Sonic Youth in Austin at Liberty Lunch on Wednesday, September 16, 1992.

Malkmus: Yeah…Isn’t that a restaurant now or something?

Black Swan: Yeah it’s a restaurant and an empty Intel building. So it’s really kind of sad that they paved it to put up an empty computer building where the company never even moved in.

Malkmus: Yeah, that’s bad. That was a nice place. That was like the classic Austin experience – the indoor/outdoor type place. They’ve still got those places, but that one was kind of the perfect size and stuff.

Black Swan: Yeah it had a great vibe.

Malkmus: Yeah. That was a long time ago. Good job.

(The interviewer laughs from the congratulatory compliment on being considered an old-schooler.)

Malkmus: How old were you then? Were you in college?

Black Swan: Yeah I was probably like, 23 or something. Definitely good times.

Malkmus: Yeah.

Black Swan: The song “Baltimore” on “Real Emotional Trash,” it kind sounds like the band is getting to open up, almost like the sections where you’re jamming could have been improvised in practice. Did those sections come about like that? Or were they created after more planned-out demos?

Malkmus: Yeah within reason, the “Baltimore” one, those are all parts. I just made a riff. For the end of the song, it has got a sort of generic riff. I would call it. Slightly generic, in that, I imagine it like a Who song or something. It doesn’t sound like it’s from their really rocking time. And it’s kind of rocking, but obviously not as good as them. But, towards the end we’re just going off in a crazy direction. But that one is (actually) organized.

I’d say that “Elmo Delmo” has some space in it. And the end of it – and some of the middle – wasn’t made up. Except on that take, I don’t think there was any plan on when the song was going to end. On that take (yawns) it just…it was kinda new, so…”

Black Swan: Did the song title “Elmo Delmo” off “Real Emotional Trash” come about from you being a dad now, and you probably having seen a couple of episodes of Sesame Street with “Tickle Me Elmo”?

Malkmus: (laughing) Yeah. I probably said (Elmo Delmo) cause I wouldn’t have said Elmo, but I was just looking for something slightly retarded, in a non-pejorative way, to rhyme there. Something like The Fall would do if they were kind of ganged up, but then unfortunately it was Elmo, you know?

Black Swan: It’s cool though.

Malkmus: Yeah. (Laughing) That’s the way it goes. It’s not that fun to sing anymore, I wish I had changed it. But…you know. I kind of feel dumb singing it now. But that’s what it was at the time.

Black Swan: Well, I know I seen a few shows in the past where you changed the entire words to a couple of songs. You can always do that.

Malkmus: That’s true. I could make up something else to chant there. It’s hard to make something phonetic in those parts. That came out, but I feel a little bit embarrassed sometimes singing “Elmo Delmo.” It is kind of dumb (he laughs again).

(Rallying) But it’s more about the music at that time. By song eight…by song eight you shouldn’t really be listening to the lyrics anymore (he says slightly facetiously). You should be doing your own thing. The music’s just in the background.

Black Swan: Yeah…by that point you should be…you should be inspired…doing your thing…

Malkmus: You’re there…painting, drawing, writing your great screenplay or whatever…inspired by the band (Both interviewer and Malkmus are laughing).

Black Swan: This next question – I tried to research it cause I didn’t want to ask you questions that a zillion people have already asked you – but how did Janet Weiss (Sleater-Kinney, Quasi, Elliott Smith’s touring band) become a Jick?

Malkmus: Well, you’re going to break this to all of Austin, and maybe the world, as the web is the world. She’s friends with (Jicks’ bassist) Joanna Bolme and me from the old, local rockers of Portland. She’s part of the establishment – and Austin obviously has one too, I’m sure. She’s been playing here in a lot of different bands.

I met her in the ‘90s. When Sleater-Kinney broke-up, I thought, “Well Janet’s free, and she’s a free player too,” so it wasn’t very hard. And Joanna plays in her band, Quasi – they took on a bass player about 2 years ago. So, it was like:  hop over here on to our stool.

It was pretty natural. And it was good timing and all that. I hadn’t started (playing) with somebody else. It just made sense.

Black Swan: How did you settle in Portland? Obviously a lot of your lyrics talk about California where you grew up. But what drew you to Portland?

Malkmus: I don’t know, you know? Probably you could ask a lot of people from Austin how they ended up there, the ones that aren’t from Texas. Or you could ask a lot of people here that are from Austin, but are moving here now (i.e. Brit Daniel of Spoon).

It just seemed like a nice place at the time. Not trampled over. It seemed kind of like an experimental city in a certain way. And also not a completely homogenized place, you know? Every place has a soul and everything. But from the outside, in Portland there is some variety in the architecture and the businesses and stuff.

And I’m from the West Coast.

(With a resolute sigh while changing gears in his mind) Why I stayed is more a matter of stasis.  And once you get up here in the corner, it’s hard to leave, you know?

Black Swan: Had you ever considered moving to Austin?

Malkmus: (enthusiastically) I have before.

Black Swan: Since the two towns have a similar vibe?

Malkmus: Yeah, totally! I have before. (He strikes his most enthusiastic tone of the interview. Now he finally sounds totally awake.)

At the time I moved (to Portland), I thought, “Well a lot of people have moved here.” When I was in my early 30s, I thought it was more collegiate or youthful there (in Austin) in a certain way. And a lot of my friends that have moved to Austin moved there straight out of college, like people are doing here now.

So I thought, “Well, I’m not looking for that right now. I’m looking for something…more mature.” (He says laughing). And I thought, “I’ll go here (to Portland).” And I found out, obviously there are all kinds of people that live in Austin and it’s not only 20 somethings…or “Slackers,” whatever that is. So that’s why I moved and that’s why I came here.

But, it could have been Austin.

And then I thought that maybe it’s too hot there in the summer.

Stephen Malkmus understands the importance of rock music and swimming at night.

Black Swan: No, you were right. It’s ridiculously hot here.

Malkmus: So I wasn’t sure. I know the winter is better (down in Austin). But here, if you like these medium-sized American cities that are kind of liberal, you could have it perfect if you lived in Austin in the winter and here (in Portland) in the summer. You could really work something out there.

Black Swan: Yeah…that’s something to consider doing.

Malkmus: But who really wants to invest that much of their soul in these perfect little cities? I don’t know. Maybe it’s better to live in New York and Hawaii or something for more intense changes, you know?

Black Swan: Well, but there’s that thing about New York. And you’ve lived there so you would know. But when you think about man and the state of nature, and how in a perfect world in the state of nature, you might not have so many people packed into so little space. And you get away from your natural inclinations because you are so disconnected from nature.

Malkmus: That’s true. (He says earnestly) I think it’s weird there. And people do get a little crazy. But they also seem pretty happy, you know? There are people that I know that live in NYC and there is just something…

There’s a lot of cool people and because of all the people, there’s a lot of great people there. Maybe they’re forced to live there, or they like it. I like that about it.

(Changing mental gears again) But I feel cramped, very often, with the kids there (in NYC). We spend some time there and I feel…I get mad at inconvenience and I feel cramped in crappy supermarkets. My bourgeois body can’t take it anymore, my 42-year-old bourgeois body. Once you’ve lived in these places (like Austin and Portland) where you just go down to the local supermarket, where it’s just more casual, you know? I don’t know.

Black Swan: Yeah, I know what you’re saying.

Malkmus: Yeah, but…if you’re loaded with cash, you get your groceries delivered and you take car services everywhere and then your bourgeois body is fine. (Laughs)

Black Swan: “Bourgeois Body.” That is a good prospective title, I think.

Malkmus: (laughs) Yeah.

Black Swan: Hey, I read that you studied History. And I know that History classes and English classes will sometimes overlap. Like you could sign up for an English class, but you could sign up for the same class in the history department.

Malkmus: Um, hmmm.

Black Swan: So I guess what I’m getting at is this: did you also take a lot of English classes?

Malkmus: Not really. No, I didn’t. I just thought I could read on the side. Personally, I didn’t like classic stuff, just from going to high school (and reading it). You know, when they would start doing John Dunne – that’s really boring – or Chaucer. I don’t want to read that. So I thought, “Well I can just read my own fiction books on the side and get my own free education there. I don’t need to go to class for that.”

Black Swan: What about creative writing classes?

Malkmus: Ummmm…no. I never took any of those. I applied for one once and they didn’t accept me because it was kind of limited to get in there. And you had to give a sample. And I think I wrote a sample, but it was really stupid I’m sure, you know? Like it was some conceptual, 2 page, really dumb thing. I can see it now. It wasn’t like…real at all.

Back then in the ‘80s, you were supposed to be real, like maybe you are now. But there wasn’t any George Sanders or anybody like that yet. (He sighs.) You just had to write about what you know…or whatever (laughing).

Black Swan: Yeah…I was an English major at UT here in Austin. And anything that was unique or different, a lot of times they’d just want to squash that creativity right out of people. Well, not every time but sometimes.

Malkmus: Not always, I’m sure. But yeah, if you were at Virginia (back then), it was really a conservative writing department.

Black Swan: Yep. UT Austin was the same.

Malkmus: And you know it was also Raymond Carver time. And Tobias Wolf. And real writers of great prose. And I appreciate that stuff. But at that time I was probably writing something more imaginative and not, you know, it probably wasn’t that good also (laughing).

So I got rejected. I never did that.

There were also plenty of young guys that thought they were writers back then. They were trying to get laid by being writers or whatever.

Black Swan: And where are they now…

Malkmus: And it would work (though). Yeah, this one friend of mine, he went to writers’ school. He was a chef and he could cook Cornish Game Hens. And he was really trying to get the chicks that way. And it was workin’ for him.

(We both laugh.)

They caught on eventually, I’m sure.

Black Swan: He was all like, “Yeah…let me write you some poesy and cook you some Cornish Game Hens.” (I jest through my laughing.)

Malkmus: Yeah…exactly.

Black Swan: OK…I think that’s the last question. Although I should probably ask you – because people are going to be curious – are you going to play any Bob Dylan or Pavement songs?

Malkmus: Ummmm, I don’t think so. (But) if that is going to make more people come to the show…? It’s probably going to be close to sold-out, although Cat Power is playing that same night. So you can ask her. She did a song for that (Todd Haynes’ Bob Dylan biography I’M NOT THERE) too.

I don’t think we’re going to play any of those songs. But, you know, it’s going to be a really phantasmagoric event regardless.

Black Swan: You know, if you played the whole new album start to finish I think people would be happy.

Malkmus: That would be good.

We’ll play a selection of songs. But we don’t do any Pavement jams. And we don’t do any Dylan. We have some other covers we’ve been working up, so…we’ll see if we bring those out. Some of those are screamers and I probably don’t want to lose my voice on the first show of the second leg.

Black Swan: I guess that’s it. But one more aside: “Gangsters and Pranksters.” I don’t know how in the world you came up with that song?

Malkmus: (He laughs) It’s pretty funny.

Black Swan:  …Sometimes I’ll be on the floor laughing while I’m listening to it because it’s so sincerely funny.

Malkmus: That one came out good. It was very spur of the moment. Sometimes spur of the moment things are good, and sometimes, you know, they’re “Elmo Delmo,” which is all right…but thanks a lot.

Black Swan: Oh yeah. Thanks again. And thanks for taking time out.

Malkmus: Nice talking to you. And way to be a survivor. Still crazy after all these years. That’s what I say to the people that keep going to shows like I would (if I weren’t touring all the time).

I met some people in Western Massachusetts, a really cute couple. They were older than me and they were like, “We’re here to see the show!” And I’d been running into teenager kids that are just like, “I never saw Pavement” and “You’re my hero!”-type kids, you know?

Black Swan: Yeah…

Malkmus: And then there are (occasionally) these older couples (that come out to shows). I was like, “All right.” These Western-Mass.-kind-of-liberal-people.

Black Swan: Yeah, yeah.

Malkmus: They were almost kind of working class looking people, you know? Or just…normal. Cause people are normal out there.

And I was like, “This is great. You’re real music fans.” You know, I don’t see them very often (he says sighing slightly). (Occasionally) we have these people that you can tell, they like to rock or whatever…still. (laughs)

Black Swan: But that’s cool to have kids coming out that are actually getting into for the first time.

Malkmus: Yeah that’s kind of weird though when something (like Pavement) has a life of its own. Obviously it’s weirder for these baby-boomer icons…when it happens forever…like Jim Morrison or Hendrix or something. I’d never put myself in those categories. But you kind of almost feel like the Velvet Underground or something…when something becomes iconic. That’s kind of funny.

But we need new things for that. And I guess it’s gonna happen for every decade. (Although) you know the ‘80s was hard I guess (since they don’t have an iconic genre defining underground rock band).

Black Swan: I don’t know what’s coming next. But it does seem like the Pavement’s records and legacy have taken on a life of its own. But it’s cool now that you are on the fourth solo records. The Jicks records are getting a life of there own too.

Malkmus: Yeah…well, this time at least. It’s gone hand-in-hand with people wanting to know about Pavement a little bit, and a canonization of Pavement and me – and then about this new album. There seems to be some sort of…whatever its called…where…not synchronicity…but that thing where things are going together. It’s that dumb business term people try for. They bring some guy in and pay him $2000 to come up with the word.

Black Swan: Synergy?

Malkmus: (laughing) Yeah. They pay him $2,000 to say that word, you know…some business coach.

I want to be one of those guys. “We need more synergy.” (he says in mocking jest) “I’m a futurist and we need synergy.”

(After realizing the time) I gotta roll.

Black Swan: Hey good talking to you.

Malkmus: Hey, likewise. I’ll see ya’ in a couple of days.

Black Swan: Cool.

Malkmus: Later man.